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Thread: Ukraine & Russia War

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16TulipsOfLove 2 months ago
Let's us diwcuss the Ukraine & Russia war here.....

Good sources to fallow on the matter:

https://bnonews.com/

https://apnews.com/hub/russia-ukraine?utm_source=apnewsnav&utm_medium=featured
4DraconidJoashu 2 months ago
Yeah, suffice it to say that it's a mess over there, and although a lot of our media is portraying Vladimir Putin as some kind of ruthless madman, IMO it shouldn't be hard to understand why he felt that he had to intervene.

Firstly, all of this needs to be viewed in the context of Russia intervening in a Ukrainian civil war, as there was plenty of fighting going on before Russia's intervention, between the forces of the NATO-backed government in Kiev (some of whom are indeed neonazis, as Russia alleges), and the Russian-backed separatists in the east.

During this fighting, thousands of eastern Ukrainians (many of whom are ethnic Russians) died, and while their desires for independence from Ukraine may be misguided, it is a direct result of their dissatisfaction with the government that assumed power back in 2014, though a (US-backed) insurrection against the (corrupt, and somewhat pro-Russian) democratically elected president of Ukraine, Victor Yanukovych.

Ever since the insurrection (which the aforementioned neonazi groups were a key part of), the ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers of eastern Ukraine have been subjected to Russophobic hatred from their own government (such as efforts to outlaw the Russian language), and while their actions are against international law, it is easy to see why they would want independence from a government that hates them because of their racial and cultural heritage, and that (now) seeks to kill them all.

Anyway, aside from Russia's concerns about Ukraine joining NATO and/or acquiring nuclear weapons (Cuban missile crisis?), they also intervened because of the Ukrainian government's refusal to abide by the Minsk agreement, particularly the portions regarding the people of eastern Ukraine having a bit more autonomy.
(Instead, they chose to try to bomb and shell them into submission, which obviously didn't work.)

Although many of the allegations against Russia are probably legitimate, so too are many of the allegations of the Russians against neonazi militias that fight against them, and ultimately, it is the people of Ukraine and Russia who will suffer the most, all because the US refused to acknowledge Russia's legitimate security concerns about NATO's eastward expansion, and the right of even a corrupt leader like Yanukovych to not be chased out of his own country by an armed mob.
(That isn't democracy, that's anarchy.)
……想像力が 足りないよ —伝承者ヒガナ
16TulipsOfLove 2 months ago
Either way we look at it... I have heard (i forget where) that there were neo nazi on both sides of this war.... Either way... I want this ended ASAP as the civilians of both countries are being affected. For example,

https://www.wbur.org/npr/1085025672/russia-social-media-ban - Russia bans Meta (fb/ig)

https://www.centralwesterndaily.com.au/story/7664664/russian-influencers-tearful-farewell-after-to-social-media-ban/ - Russia's citizens effected by ban.

Ik there are far worse (deaths & arrests of protesters), but I don't feel up to grabbing those as those are way worse.
16TulipsOfLove 2 months ago
Firstly, all of this needs to be viewed in the context of Russia intervening in a Ukrainian civil war, as there was plenty of fighting going on before Russia's intervention, between the forces of the NATO-backed government in Kiev (some of whom are indeed neonazis, as Russia alleges), and the Russian-backed separatists in the


They should have been left to figure it out on their iwn (if this was the case) instead of adding far more damages and deaths.
16TulipsOfLove 2 months ago
4DraconidJoashu 2 months ago
Prior to all of this, the Russians were (mostly) staying out of the conflict, other than arming and financing the separatists, just as the US and its allies were arming and financing the Ukrainian military.
(There were also Russian and American mercenaries participating in the conflict, but that's another subject.)

This intervention was prompted by 2 things, both of which are direct threats to Russia: Ukraine pursuing membership in NATO, and Ukraine expressing interest in reclaiming Crimea.

Membership in NATO was clearly stated as being one of Russia's red lines, and although it was never actually crossed, President Zelenskyy repeatedly expressed interest in it prior to Russia's invasion, and he even (at various points) expressed interest in reacquiring the nuclear weapons that they had once possessed under the USSR.
(Which is an existential threat to Russia.)

Russia cannot afford to have an openly hostile, neonazi-infested country on its border joining NATO and/or posessing nuclear weapons, and while the conduct of the Russians is appalling, it is sad but true that this all could've been avoided by the leadership of NATO, the US, and Ukraine promising Russia that Ukraine won't join NATO.
(I'll never understand why they couldn't make that simple commitment to the Russians, and now so many people are suffering for it.)
……想像力が 足りないよ —伝承者ヒガナ
16TulipsOfLove 2 months ago
You are defending russia without defending their warcrimes.... Hmmm
16TulipsOfLove 2 months ago
Which is good that you are at least against the war.
4DraconidJoashu 2 months ago
I am not just against this war, I am against all wars.
(And nobody in their right mind would defend anyone committing warcrimes, including the Russians RN.)

It is worth noting, however, that if the Russians were doing what they claim they are doing in Ukraine (which is precision strikes on military targets, with the intention of disarming the pro-Kiev forces), then I wouldn't be nearly as opposed to their actions, but unfortunately it seems as though they are hitting plenty of civilian targets with their bombing campaign, much like we did when we were trying to drive ISIS out of Raqqa and Mosul.
(I had similar feelings about those military interventions to how I feel about this one of the Russians.)

Of course, the other reason that I tend to look at it from Russia's perspective is because quite frankly nobody else is, and if we are to stop this conflict without starting WWIII, we need to be engaging in sincere diplomatic efforts with the Russians, and address their (completely legitimate) security concerns.
(We wouldn't want Mexico, Canada, or Cuba joining a military alliance with Russia, would we?)
……想像力が 足りないよ —伝承者ヒガナ
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